Curse

DarkNecrid · Oct 28, 2008, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_deSKtructor

That's why they should it those pet ress skills (ie comfort/heal as one getting disabled for xx secs when your pet gets ressed). Right now, those beastmaster just bring a pet and don't even care if it dies, since it can be ressed right after with no real drawback.

I agree, but I think they should just make the pet rezzes suck in general and do whatever else they possibly can to make pets not viable in PvP. Extra adds to a PvP fight (Pets, Spirits that do damage, Minions) are very hard to balance. Spirits are a non-issue now except in 4v4 because of their lower health, burning owns em, and they're stationary, Minions aren't much of an issue at all and never have been except in funny (but easily destroyed and rarely OP) gimmick builds because of their costs (both energy, skill slot, and the corpse, and then the costs to keep them alive), yet Pets have good health, good armor, do good damage, can be rezzed instantly, can be buffed to be unblockable, have fairly decent attack skills associated with em now, and well, have no drawback except for the fact you have to take a skill slot for another being that doesn't suck helping you and that if it dies you have a long-small disable depending on your BM.

There is not one skillful thing Pets add to PvP just like Minions and Spirits. They make the classes a bit more interesting in some ways, but they're also prone to either being completely useless or really really really good (or in the Ritualist's case a crutch for 75% of their skills) for new players/being used in annoying usually good for stomping novices/other players builds. At least, I can't think of one reason why Pets should even be around or viable, personally. It's kind of like Smiting Prayers, yeah its a kind of unique role for the class, but it's either super bad (and no one takes it), or broken in some regard (which is the only reason anyone would ever take an Add, if they weren't broken in some way, why would you take one? It'd be much better to use something else for a build if they were only mediocre, as they aren't worth the slot then.).

But Izzy thinks (and I quote as exact as I can) "Thumpers are a fun and unique build" so this will never happen.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 28, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

in other words, button mash with overly good results.

Which has been an overly re-occurring theme lately. Read on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

But Izzy thinks (and I quote as exact as I can) "Thumpers are a fun and unique build" so this will never happen.

Same with Wounding Strike dervs, Expert's Dexterity rangers, Warrior's Endurance, the middle age Sin bars that were greatly buffed with Nightfalls skills. Vamp spirit necro's.

moko · Oct 28, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

^he also liked Steady Stance .. yeah. :<

X Cytherea X · Oct 28, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

i agree with him on all of those, tbh. those are the cool builds, most other things are plain bland imo. izzy should trust his initial instincts and not listen to people.

DarkNecrid · Oct 28, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

i agree with him on all of those, tbh. those are the cool builds, most other things are plain bland imo. izzy should trust his initial instincts and not listen to people.

wtb a mod hit on quoted poster - 100k+50e+25 AoT pst

All those builds are terrible, too newb friendly (goes against the original game design of skill mattering, whats the point if someone with no skill can go roll everyone for free?), and you're dumb and think Assassins are better than Warriors, which says quite a lot. Izzy isn't perfect, and if he went with his initial instincts, Assassins wouldn't even exist right now which would prolly piss you off since you seem to be such a big fanboy of them.

You find the actual balanced builds bland because you don't like balance, you just find imbalance fun. Makes sense, except that when you're in a thread about balance, you can't just go HURR THOSE BUILDS ARE TOTALLY FINE CAUSE I FIND THEM IMBALANCED AND FUN ^_____________^. I find them fun too, but that's because they're broken and retarded, and you have to set that aside for the betterment of the game.

Then again you could have seriously meant that you think Expert Dexterity is completely balanced and not even vaguely overpowered. Knowing you, I don't doubt that you think this. At all.

Symbol · Oct 28, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec

-[oMaN]Warrior's Endurance

I'm not understanding how warrior's endurance is "button mashing"? You've still got bull's, you've still got frenzy, you've still got all the usual things you have to do as a warrior (target selection, positioning, micro stuff like quarterstepping), the only thing you're missing is the utility slot that WE takes up.

How is WE so different from an eviscerate axe using a conjure instead of shock, for example?

Tyla · Oct 28, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Because it allows you to take spammy skills such as Power Attack or Protectors' Strike. The energy management allows this to be continually maintained, and you can Dash Dash and Dash to compete with enemy speed.

Symbol · Oct 28, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Because it allows you to take spammy skills such as Power Attack or Protectors' Strike. The energy management allows this to be continually maintained, and you can Dash Dash and Dash to compete with enemy speed.

So what? You want to pressure with an old school axe warrior, you unload as often as you can. That's not any more skillful than hitting power attack when it comes up. It's a difference of degree, not kind. The difference between a good WE warrior and a bad one is still going to be night and day, because the amount of micro and the amount of field awareness needed is the same.

WE allows you sacrifice utility (in the form of a skill slot) for damage. It just does it better than previous builds.

DarkNecrid · Oct 28, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Warrior's Endurance is a neat skill because the Warrior's energy attacks are balanced around the idea that you won't use them often because of the Warrior's limited energy reserves. (ie: Power Attack is Executioner's Strike except on a 3s recharge and it costs 5e. With WE, you can use this a lot more often than you ever will EStrike.)

I don't think it's a major problem (or a problem at all really, it's really good for low level play tho.), EDex is definitely the bigger problem. You're really limited with WE if you want to go all out with it, and all you bring to the team is BIG DOMAGE, which isn't a bad thing for Warriors. The damage WE gives you isn't obscenely overpowered or anything, and you lose a fair share of utility elite wise for it.

Hopefully the November update will shape EDex up a bit, though. (I can dream right?)

Symbol · Oct 28, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Exactly. ED is a huge problem because a player can hit 'T' and roll their face against the keyboard and there's a high likelihood that someone will die. You can't do that with WE.

WE is a pressure build that's just flat out better in a lot of ways than old templates. It's not as fragile as dragonslash, it's not owned by RC like cripslash, and it doesn't rely on an enchantment like conjure warrior. That's why people use it (well, that and the fact that spam DW + 2 ED rangers is retarded).

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 28, 2008, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

So what? You want to pressure with an old school axe warrior, you unload as often as you can. That's not any more skillful than hitting power attack when it comes up. It's a difference of degree, not kind. The difference between a good WE warrior and a bad one is still going to be night and day, because the amount of micro and the amount of field awareness needed is the same.

WE allows you sacrifice utility (in the form of a skill slot) for damage. It just does it better than previous builds.

I agree with your statement but it's still off topic. Compared to how the game is now and was. WE is still strictly a spammed template which we are discussing. There's no comparison with DW on 5 adren compared to 8, prot strike on 3 and power attack comparable to exec on 3 compared to building 8 adren which takes probably longer than 8 seconds in todays meta. Spammy high dmg skill bar end of story.

Yes the ED template is more troublesome. A high armored midline char being able to dish out higher dmg than warriors can. They don't have to build, they don't have to converge on anything, and have the benefit of range.

Symbol · Oct 28, 2008, 10:50 PM // 22:50

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I agree with your statement but it's still off topic. Compared to how the game is now and was. WE is still strictly a spammed template which we are discussing. There's no comparison with DW on 5 adren compared to 8, prot strike on 3 and power attack comparable to exec on 3 compared to building 8 adren which takes probably longer than 8 seconds in todays meta. Spammy high dmg skill bar end of story.

Oh, sure I agree, it is a spammy, high damage skill bar, no doubt about it. It's the "button mashing" part I take issue with. You can button mash, but you'll just fail if your opponents aren't idiots.

Is it a good thing for the game? I don't know. On one hand the warrior meta has been stale for ages now, so it's kinda neat to see something new appear after all this time. On the other, it doesn't really bring anything drastically different to the table. On the whole, I'd say it's a wash. It's just another option people can run now. It's not going to replace shock axe or anything.

Quote:

Yes the ED template is more troublesome. A high armored midline char being able to dish out higher dmg than warriors can. They don't have to build, they don't have to converge on anything, and have the benefit of range.

Pretty sure it's going to get nerfed. You can only watch 130 damage keen arrow headshots for so long.

Krill · Oct 29, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

The endurance axe seems to be roughly the same as conjure axe dps wise. You lose the chance of hitting something with agonizing chop, but you gain a choice of running dash or a DP sig. So even though it's pretty boring to play I don't think it's any worse than conjure axe, other than you can't strip it obviously. I noticed bvd ran spirit shackles in last weeks mAT on a Lyssa's Aura mes and it hurt both templates (WE and ED) bad, so until something is done (if ever) that seems like a good counter.

Byron · Oct 29, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

The Endurance warrior is overall tacky, one-dimensional, and not very fun to play imho. Split capability is poor, you might as well have a dervish. It's great for 3-2-1's. But when midline damage is nerfed (ie, pew-pew rangers), which will hopefully happen soon, I think we'll see this template go away.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 29, 2008, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

The Endurance warrior is overall tacky, one-dimensional, and not very fun to play imho. Split capability is poor, you might as well have a dervish. It's great for 3-2-1's. But when midline damage is nerfed (ie, pew-pew rangers), which will hopefully happen soon, I think we'll see this template go away.

Pretty much. The template really only shines with ED rangers.

Seamus Finn · Oct 29, 2008, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

The Endurance warrior is overall tacky, one-dimensional, and not very fun to play imho. Split capability is poor, you might as well have a dervish. It's great for 3-2-1's. But when midline damage is nerfed (ie, pew-pew rangers), which will hopefully happen soon, I think we'll see this template go away.

I'm not sure how it's split capability could be considered poor, unless you are saying as a solo split template. Other than losing shock, you have a typical warrior that doesn't need adren to start unloading and can spam dash, two very large upgrades for warrior splitting.

kosh · Oct 30, 2008, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I'm not sure how it's split capability could be considered poor, unless you are saying as a solo split template. Other than losing shock, you have a typical warrior that doesn't need adren to start unloading and can spam dash, two very large upgrades for warrior splitting.

add to that.for once a war can actually use WD! how long has been Wd on sins bar? dervs bar? tumpers bar?

We is the only viable build that let you use it. so goodbye pesky low lvl arenas escape ranger, fortress monks, sins with Wota etc. so yeah it wont replaced shock axe. but i do not see it as a one-dimensional, yeah maybe power attack need 5 sec recharge? but ucan pack so much utility in that bar is fun

Sun Fired Blank · Oct 30, 2008, 02:32 PM // 14:32

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There's no comparison with DW on 5 adren compared to 8

Executioner's Strike and Agonizing Chop both use adrenaline. Power Attack and Protector's Strike don't, so you can mostly spam Dismember on recharge.

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The endurance axe seems to be roughly the same as conjure axe dps wise.

Conjure Axe has greater damage potential, but as Power Attack doesn't require adrenaline, and you can seriously increase your damage output if you land Protector's Strike on a regular basis, Warrior's Endurance probably does more damage.

Quote:

WE is a pressure build that's just flat out better in a lot of ways than old templates.

Agreed, it's amazing when I can simply pressure targets every 3 seconds with Power Attack -> Dismember -> Protector's Strike, and still have Protector's Strike available for moving targets.

Byron · Oct 30, 2008, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I'm not sure how it's split capability could be considered poor, unless you are saying as a solo split template. Other than losing shock, you have a typical warrior that doesn't need adren to start unloading and can spam dash, two very large upgrades for warrior splitting.

Well, it has no interrupts and no movement control besides bull's (which is less likely to trigger on splits). Just running away and not eating bull's really limits its effectiveness. But, combined with a reliable snare, it will clearly outdamage other templates.

Dash is a good point; it makes you go zoom.

Celeborn10 · Oct 30, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

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Im not sure what should be done about interrupts, it seems a bit too late in the games life to be removing items so i think casting sets will stay, but i do think they should lower the recharge of powerblock by a few seconds and take the blackout duration to something like 5 seconds because currently the ability to perma shutdown any caster with 1 second casts is stupid and with a decent ping its also really easy to hit 3/4 second casts.

Hmm, what if GoLE were reverted to its previous incarnation? Blockway might come back but with GvG the way it is would that matter so much?